So here's a fun topic to talk about: what do you all think of the issue of modesty? For those who claim a moral/religious background, do you think your faith affects how you dress? For Christians, do you think Jesus has anything to say about this issue? How much do we need to follow fashion?
I'm continually surprised how sexual dress is these days. As a guy, I'm speaking about the way women dress, in particular. (Do women struggle with this as well?) And it's not always overtly sexual (as in a lot of skin). It's the "well-placed" flashes of skin that kill most men. I'm not sure most women REALLY understand what your dress does to men. (And if you do... that is another issue). Now, the reality is...different men are attracted to different looks, so I'm not sure you can totally avoid this! (Sweats and a T-shirt can be sexy). But ... and maybe I'm being a bit more vulnerable here than I ought ... this low rise paints and cropped shirt look is really distracting!
So...hypothitically speaking ... if I knew a pastor and this pastor wanted to talk about the issue of modesty, how could this subject be addressed in a way that didn't seem "legalistic" (although the vast majority of people use that word incorrectly) and would actually affect change? Or do we men just need to learn to look away? Does the problem just fall with us?
I'm really interested in your thoughts, but I would love the thoughts of people (particularly women) who are not my regular readers as well. So...if you know anyone and want to talk to them about this issue... I'm curious.
Reflections of a Journeying Blogger
13 comments:
Thanks, those are some excellent thoughts and real feelings. Thank you for being honest. It would be interesting if we could live in each other's shoes for a while. I would love for you to know how I feel...as I would love to know how you fee. Words just sometimes don't cut it. But I do sense your desire to honor God and yet the stuggle with the issue.
FOR EVERYONE: if you are going to use the term "legalism" I will ask that you define it as you use it.
Thanks brookelyn for your thoughts. I appreciate it.
So what exactly is this "lust" thing we seem to be causing others to do? Dictionary.com defines lust as "Intense or unrestrained sexual craving." If that's the case, then a midrift or a tank top just doesn't do it for me. Sure, I like those things and I look when they pass by, but does noticing that a female is attractive constitute lust? God did intentionally make females attractive to males. I mean the whole human race would have died off if that weren't the case. So, then, where is the line that we should draw between being the beautiful people (and stylish too because God is very stylish and creative) that God intended us to be and attacting unneccesary attention to our bodies?
Interestingly, I'm working on my six pack right now in hopes of a few shirts and skins games this summer. For me, getting in shape is a way of honoring God with my body. Although, there are some more selfish reasons too, like not looking like the wimp I've been most of my life (to the guys or the girls).
I have had modesty discussions with many of my friends, both guys and girls. And each discussion has lead me to this conclusion: it'd be a whole lot easier to help serve our brothers and sisters if we knew how to meet their need.
Many of the girls in my dorm have helped eachother with "what not to wear." And I'm happy to report that we do not go around wearing brown paper bags or clothes 3 sizes too big to hide what God gave us. We are able to be stylish and attractive without being provocative. And on more than one occasion, we have suggested that someone change a shirt or put on a longer skirt, to which their usual reply is "Oh wow...I never noticed that."
A guy friend and I are very frank with one another if something is being worn that is causing us to stumble. I can't wear spaghetti straps. He can't wear 'white-beaters' (is that the technical term?) But that's just US! I wear that same tank top around another guy, and if he doesn't say anything, I assume he's okay with it. I try to use my better judgement, but how am I supposed to know if my Mr. Rogers shirt from 10th grade is a little too fitting?
1st tidbit - be honest with people. If someone is wearing something that is leading you to sin (and God will let you know if it is in fact sin), tell them. Chances are, they have no idea. If you don't feel comfortable telling them in person, approach their friend. General announcements in group settings can be helpful, but how many times have you thought, "That can't be me they're talking about..."
2nd tidbit - TAKE THE ADVICE! I have a lot of guy friends in my dorm, and sometimes, they don't like to wear their shirts. I will never forget approaching one of my brothers in Christ and telling him that this was causing me to sin when I came to visit them. His response: "That's ridiculous. It's our floor, our choice. You don't expect guys to wear shirts at the beach. If it's bothering you that much, don't come up."
There are multiple problems with this statement.
1) Don't discount someone's weakness or say that it's stupid. Satan's bad enough egging us on to give into it. We don't need to feel shameful or feel less of a Christian (let alone person). You don't have to understand the reasoning. Just respect it.
2) Maybe it was their choice what to wear on a all guys floor, but isn't there something to say about tailoring to the situation? If a guy pops by to visit me, chances are I'm not going to prance around in my sports bra the way I do with my girl friends. I guess if girls were to take this approach, we could wander around in our bras with no concern. It's OUR floor.
3. Don't compare it to the beach. Last time I checked, a lot of undergarments are more modest than the bathing suits on sale these days.
4. God does call us to make sacrifices, and we are to avoid situations that could lead us to sin. Which was the right sacrifice? Losing time with my guy friends or them going to their room to grab a shirt?
This has been a pretty specific blog, so let me summarize in general terms. How will we know what modesty is to our brothers? Ask them: I want to encourage you in your walk with God...will wearing this distract you? Girls, tell guys if they're wearing something that's causing you to lust either physically or emotionally. Because, like I said. Chances are, they have no idea.
there are a LOT of issues and questions and ideas wrapped up in paul's post. i'm having trouble trying to focus here...
first and foremost, let it be known: i am pretty much a tomboy. any skin of mine that you might see is most likely the pure result of oversight, so this posting certainly isn't in the pursuit of me wanting to prance around immodestly. [ick.]
in response to brooke's post, i have to say 1) what a great description of precisely how NOT to deal with this issue, and 2) it's just one MORE reason for me to actively dislike ccc. hello? women can't show skin while men gallavant with no shirts on? DOUBLE STANDARD. BLOWS MY MIND.
as for the "that's just how men are" argument: while this may be true, are we seriously considering that this can be played as a legitimate Victim Card? please. because we all know that women don't think impure thoughts and that women don't struggle with lust and women don't ever think about sex, right? RIGHT. "but it's different for men!", you may say. "different" may be an EXPLANATION, but, take note: it is not an EXCUSE.
so, to recap: clearly, the onus is on the females to keep the males on the straight and narrow. and since every male's particular weaknesses differ [according to previously posted sentiments from genuine males], females have no idea how to dress appropriately in any given situation. accordingly, this means that i can NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE.
guess what: you can't please everyone. one man's sweatshirt is another man's tube top. should women really shoulder the blame for men's impure thoughts? should men allow women to shoulder the blame for their impure thoughts? to both: NO.
this is turning into an unsolicited rant. bleh. so, in answer to your "how can this be addressed" question: don't generalize. don't pretend that women don't notice men. don't put the blame on women. don't let men off the hook. don't pretend there's an easy solution. don't say that women need to think about their dress UNLESS YOU ALSO SAY that men need to do the same. do encourage a transforming of minds for all involved. do recognize we are all fallen, broken, and needy people. do this all in love: otherwise it is nothing.
parting thoughts: even without the stumble factor, shouldn't we be dressing appropriately anyway? shouldn't we already be dressing in a way that glorifies God, and not ourselves?
I've reserved myself for a day, in responding to this because I can get pretty ramped up about it. I've had several conversations with several different guys about it...and it's confusing. Some guys say the whole skin thing turns them on so much they can barely function around women wearing tank tops. Some guys say that's ridiculous and that's how the world is, so deal with it, and if you can't control yourself you're immature or whatever. THe guys in group A. get mad about that and swear up and down that they guys in group B. are lying and they are just sinning their brains out everyday, but they won't admit it. The guys in group B. say that the guys in group B. are pervs.
I don't know what women's response should be. All I can tell you is that when I go out dancing, I dress one way and when I go to church I dress another way. If I know specifically I'm going ot be around men who might have an issue, I try to be aware of it. I realize there's a lot of in between stuff there, like when I go to the restaurant on the way to the dancing club, where there may well be some pastor and his wife having dinner. The thing is, I dress pretty conservatively compared to a lot of girls I see out and about...but compared to other girls, I'm probably pretty scandelous.
I think just as bad as causing guys to sin by what we're wearing is judging the unknowing girls who are wearing the offending items or lack thereof. I recal lone time wearing something that was a little bit revealing when I was a sophomore in college (honestly not even thinking about it) and one of the women in our ministry saw me from across the room and I thought her eyes were going to pop out of her head. She literally rushed over to me and kind of tugged at my shirt, pulling it up higher. I was so embarrassed and felt like she was saying I was a prostitute. Believe me when I say, this was no tube top....in fact I would probably wear it today, but not to church. That kind of behavior is judgemental.
I think perhaps the most important thing is for us to have a Christ-like response when a concern is specifically brought to us. I am not ever going to walk around wearing big baggy clothes, my effort being to hide my body. When I go to the beach I will wear a bathing suit and when it's hot out I may well wear a tank top. Part of my whole ministry, etc. is being a part of the culture, and walking around in sweats doesn't really fit my target market so to speak. It was different when I worked at ahomeless shelter and hung out with appalachian people...and I did dress differently then. As a young profesional in a city where people go out on the town quite a bit, there is a different style that comes with it and I'm comfortable in that. But if a brother approached me about it, I hope I would have the gentleness and loving response of a woman who is willing to serve her spiritual family. - jessi
My husband is in seminary and as a part of an ethics class, chose to write about this tough topic. Here is one small paragraph from his final paper:
"Modesty, however, is not relative. It is true that when modesty is defined according to the actual styles and fit of clothing, there is no one standard from culture to culture, generation to generation. Even within each of these, though, there are general lines of modesty that need be acknowledged. Yet, there is another aspect of modesty that often is ignored: our purpose for dressing the way that we do. “James Laver, a British museum curator with a passion for nuances of fashion, suggests three principles that effect human dress: utility, hierarchy, and seduction.” (Van Leeuwen, 1993, p. 303). That is to say, what we wear is purposeful. Certain clothing is worn out of sheer pragmatism (e.g. gloves in the garden). Other is worn to show a certain status in society (e.g. a tight corset in America past). The third purpose, seduction, is the one that is primarily related to modesty. In dressing so as to be sexually noticed by others, modesty is undermined. No matter what one puts on, when he puts it on for public seduction, he is being immodest and unchaste. He is neither acting out of love for God or for others."
brooke - i'm sorry. i didn't mean to come across quite like that. i was involved in ccc as well, bible studies, etc. [though not on this campus]. it actually hasn't been until my post-college days that i've come to realize my personal disagreements with ccc philosophies [parent organization, not isolated campuses]. not based on petty things, but on a preponderance of the evidence regarding others' experiences as well as my own. i feel i can separate my dislike for particular issues, from my support of the actual people in the organization. if that makes sense. i recant my generic, sweeping "active dislike" statement in favor of a "philosophical disagreement" comment. :)
hugs?
Ah...reconciliation. How sweet.
Are some of you suggesting that Christian women should not be held to a standard as to what they wear? Whereas it is true part of the responsibity certainly lies with the guy... isn't that just PART of the responsibilty? And is dress REALLY situational? So I should dress one way so I don't cause brothers or sisters to sin in Church, but it's okay to cause non-believers to sin on the dance floor? Come on.
in response to anonymous...
though it may seem my first post had a "wear whatever you want" feel to it, i assure you, this is not the case. i posted things that were probably going to be unpopular but i felt needed to be said. the "who is to blame" game just doesn't sit well with me. i wasn't going to sit back in tacit agreement that "the reason men struggle is because of the way women dress". men and women have struggled with sexual issues since the beginning of time. this isn't a new, surprising phenomenon. we can't shift all the blame to culture or dress or whatever hot button topic is popular at the moment.
because guess what: we sin and we struggle not necessarily because of outward forces, but because we are fallen people. ALL of us. therefore: we are ALL responsible for our own sin. we can carry one another's burdens, we can choose our dress carefully, we can encourage one another in fighting the good fight: but ultimately, we can't STOP someone from their own sinful actions. persuade, encourage, hold accountable, yes: but ultimately, a choice is made somewhere along the line. free will, eh? we all need to start from the inside out, instead of finding ways to shift the blame and responsibility.
my point is not that women shouldn't think about how they dress. we most certainly should [as should men]. my point is that it's not the magical solution to the problem. my point is that there IS no magical solution to the problem. we shouldn't pretend that there is. defeating sin is rarely a cakewalk, and there are no cliff's notes. this topic in particular is a complicated one. different people are turned on by different things at different times in different places. we can't make a list of "acceptable / unacceptable" things to wear; it just wouldn't work. but as val [or hubby] said: perhaps it's not so much the WHAT, as the WHY. what an interesting observation.
also, i don't dress for the situation. i dress pretty much the same way whether i'm going to work, to church, to donkey, to a bar, to the store. if you peeked into my closet you'd know how [fashion-frighteningly] true that is.
i reiterate my previous parting thoughts: even without the stumble factor, shouldn't we be dressing appropriately anyway? shouldn't we already be dressing in a way that glorifies God, and not ourselves?
i'm not sure i'm making sense anymore.
I've held off because I hate talking about stuff like this.
But mdog has an excellent point: Keep your eyes on your own work. Then nobody gets hurt.
I think this is a category in which we LOVE to excerise our number-one favorite sin: Our "knowledge" of good and evil. We KNOW what immodesty looks like, so we can definitively judge people (or their intentions) as good or evil based on how they dress. (Or walk, or talk, or eat, or drink or anything else.) This makes us feel better about ourselves.
If we're talking specifically believers, specifically in small groups called to accountability, then we know much more about the situation, the person's heart, the culture and the surroundings (a funeral, versus, say, the beach). With this information, we can choose NOT to make a judgement call on what they should or should not be wearing, but rather to find in and give worth to that person, without concern for ourselves. Our unconditional love can free that person from fear of judgement, and they can trust us to help them with their struggles.
There are a number of ways this can be accomplished, but most simply put, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
As far as the dressing one way in one siutation and another way in another....I think this is totally valid. If you go out to a dance club, you should expect to see some skin. It's reality. If this causes struggle, then you shouldn't go. Dressing differently in different places is a big part of being socially relevant in my world. I dress differently for important networking functions, for black tie awards dinners, for going out dancing, for going on a first date, for church. I enjoy being fashion appropriate. Some people don't care about that, and that is fine, but to me, it's a sign of professionalism (in work related settings) and of being conscious of varied environments. Connecting with people is important to me and being relevant (socially, musically aware, fashion aware) goes along with understanding contemporary issues and the having seen the latest movie or read the latest book. I believe God uses me through my ability to connect with people, and clothes is just a small part of that. As far as how this relates to modesty, it's interesting, because while cleavage on the dance floor is socially acceptable, for example...it would NOT be at a daytime business function. Here, it doesn't necessarily have to do with sexual struggle, but it has to do with distraction. The tops of a woman's boobs are distracting in church, I would gather. But they should be expected in a lot of settings, because that's just how it is. And if you can't handle it, then don't frequent those places. Additionally, I think a woman's actions and things like facial expressions and physical posture can have a far greater impact than the outfit.
What I'm interested in is...from the boys here, I swear, I have talked to probably three guys in my life who just don't see it as a big deal. One example is...a guy who I know, who, Like me was a swimmer and a lifeguard...a girl in a bathing suit, to him is like a girl ina sweat suit. It's no big deal because he's conditioned to not see that as a necessarily sexual environment. I've met other guys like this. Can anyone speak to this? -jessi
Jared, I'm interested to hear why you think "God is very stylish and creative." It's obvious to me that God is Creative -- that's a no-brainer, but stylish to me implies temporality.
Mdog: "different" may be an EXPLANATION, but, take note: it is not an EXCUSE.
You rock my literary and academic world, girl!
Val/Brian: I would love to read that paper. Hook me up?
Jessi: No offense, but I don't ever want to see "the tops of a woman's boobs." I think the point is not that people should dress the same way everywhere, but that modesty in church should also be reflected in other situations. There are some cultural situations, like a Muslim area or apostolic bretheren church, where to be incarnational or sensitive, I might alter the way I normally dress, but I think our own view toward dressing to attract the opposite sex probably shouldn't be sexually inviting, whether or not "everyone else" in the club is dressing provocatively.
in but not of.
-rachel
b109.com
there is nothing a woman can wear or not wear that can force a man to sin. men sin because they are sinners. women, knowing men are sinners, can only agape men as best they can...that usually means dressing more modestly than one might want to. many men are lust 'alcoholics', and you just don't offer an alcoholic a drink. additionally, some women in the church (particularly new converts) may see established Christians dressed a certin way and be encouraged to dress the same way.
this is 1 cor 8 territory. ...we restrain ourselves and suffer out of agape for others - but in total freedom and self-choice.
this is also 1 cor 10:23-32 territory. "do nto cause anyone to stuble, whether jews or greeks or >the church of God<". we restrain ourselves because of other people's consciences - not our own.
Post a Comment